At least I can get it up and running with the Innovate LM1, and datalog etc the bike when it is running. Somehow, strapping a 15" MacBook Pro and looking at TunerStudio when I am riding on our congested roads doesn't appeal to me.
GTS1000 on MicroSquirt running MSExtra
Re: GTS1000 on MicroSquirt running MSExtra
Not done anything for a few weeks, been busy with other stuff. Managed to get a few stand-offs for the boards to fit the new ECU case, and also found a Yamaha R6 cam sensor. This is a three wire hHall effect that is a smaller diameter than stock, so I might be able to make an adaptor to fit the red GTS1000 cam sensor hole in the rocker cover. A few minutes on the lathe should sort it, and the good news is the red GTS1000 has passed its UK MOT test (like TUV, APK or DOT?), so I can use it tomorrow.
At least I can get it up and running with the Innovate LM1, and datalog etc the bike when it is running. Somehow, strapping a 15" MacBook Pro and looking at TunerStudio when I am riding on our congested roads doesn't appeal to me.
At least I can get it up and running with the Innovate LM1, and datalog etc the bike when it is running. Somehow, strapping a 15" MacBook Pro and looking at TunerStudio when I am riding on our congested roads doesn't appeal to me.
Thunderace engine in GTS1000 with MicroSquirt running MSExtr
Finally a day off work, and a little play again, as I needed to sort out the irregular slightly lumpy idle. Once I reloaded the MicroSquirt with the last running settings from Day1, I managed a start, but I need to tweak the cranking pulses, as it took a little bit of brake cleaner to get it going. Once I did and after the passage of time, I began to think the idle fault was an air leak in the induction system. The quickest way to test this, i to put your hand over each throttle body and choke the engine, if they all die at the same rate, it's unlikely to be one, but on doing cylinder 2 I got a hissing sound.
Further investigation showed it had no pilot or idle screw, as it had been used as a sample perhaps for the new batch that were made, as part of my idle screw replacement. It was close on three years ago...that's my excuse!
Once I got the engine warm, I realised the air temperature and coolant sensing had switched, so it was affecting the fuelling and advance, so no wonder I had problems with the timing light. It is a software fault with the alpha code I am using, that I was not aware of, so hopefully it won't be there when I upgrade to 3.0.3t. Once I had eliminated all the temperature corrections, I balanced the throttle bodies, because I had replaced the idle screw now, and I found 1 & 2 were out with respect to 3 & 4.
I have now got the bike running nicely (on the centre stand) using "untimed injection" (or batch injection), and "semi sequential". Both of these do not need a cam sensor, but have different fuelling algorithms. The bike sounds good and revs nicely in "untimed injection" mode, but the "semi sequential" mode needs a little more work, and it looks like I will be altering the OEM advance degrees...the figures in the black box, as you can hear a roughness at around 4K, although it's only revving to 6500 in this test. I also have to alter the Acceleration Wizard quite a bit in semi sequential, and I will have to do some more reading to understand this.
http://gallery.me.com/mike.crane/100088
I am well impressed with the Thunderace conversion so far, it's just unfortunate the neighbours are too close, and I am working tomorrow, otherwise I would be further down the line, by the end of the weekend.
PS Really should start another thread/topic as this is a parallel bit of skunkworks...different engine crank triggering, ultimately going sequential.
Further investigation showed it had no pilot or idle screw, as it had been used as a sample perhaps for the new batch that were made, as part of my idle screw replacement. It was close on three years ago...that's my excuse!
Once I got the engine warm, I realised the air temperature and coolant sensing had switched, so it was affecting the fuelling and advance, so no wonder I had problems with the timing light. It is a software fault with the alpha code I am using, that I was not aware of, so hopefully it won't be there when I upgrade to 3.0.3t. Once I had eliminated all the temperature corrections, I balanced the throttle bodies, because I had replaced the idle screw now, and I found 1 & 2 were out with respect to 3 & 4.
I have now got the bike running nicely (on the centre stand) using "untimed injection" (or batch injection), and "semi sequential". Both of these do not need a cam sensor, but have different fuelling algorithms. The bike sounds good and revs nicely in "untimed injection" mode, but the "semi sequential" mode needs a little more work, and it looks like I will be altering the OEM advance degrees...the figures in the black box, as you can hear a roughness at around 4K, although it's only revving to 6500 in this test. I also have to alter the Acceleration Wizard quite a bit in semi sequential, and I will have to do some more reading to understand this.
http://gallery.me.com/mike.crane/100088
I am well impressed with the Thunderace conversion so far, it's just unfortunate the neighbours are too close, and I am working tomorrow, otherwise I would be further down the line, by the end of the weekend.
PS Really should start another thread/topic as this is a parallel bit of skunkworks...different engine crank triggering, ultimately going sequential.
Thunderace engine in GTS1000 using MicroSquirt running MSExt
It has been a month virtually since I have had a day off, and found time to look at the Thunderace engined GTS1000 project, but it's looking good now.
I brought two cased Microsquirts along, one running the original 3.0.3s code the other running the latest 3.0.3u code. After a hesitant starting attempt, which just resulted in cranking until brake cleaner came to the rescue. It turned out my cranking rpms were set to low and the fuel value above this was half what it needed to be up to 800rpm, so the fuelling needed hiking up in the VE Tables.
I was aware the MSExtra semi sequential code needed a different required fuel constant (half of the normal untimed injection mode), but I also found the idle fuelling quite different too, as well WUE and ASE are more affected by the wax canister which acts as a fast idle on warm up, by opening the throttle butterflies slightly. I'll be tweaking this as I go forward to improve on the cold starts.
After a few minutes and after swapping the MAT and Coolant wires in the loom adaptor, I started to get sensible readings in TunerStudio. I never noticed this with the GTS1000 engines previously, but I'll have to double check the datalogs to see if MAT is double the Coolant temperatures. A few tweaks to the acceleration wizard, mods to injection timing, fixed and table etc, and I got a steady idle on an unknown engine. I am still not able to time the bike, without spraying oil over my glasses/timing light....grrrr.
It actually sounds very good off idle and you can rip the throttle and it takes off, no baulking. I am well impressed, and have ordered a lambda sensor sleeve of fleaBay to mod the exhaust further. My mate needs to get the rolling chassis up to spec now, and I will refine the rest of the fuel and ignition tables on the road, so it's up to him now to get on with it, as it'll take a week or so of constant refinement to get it to a touring/cruising standard.
PS The latest code is definitely cleaner running.
Short movie clips/links will be added later.
I brought two cased Microsquirts along, one running the original 3.0.3s code the other running the latest 3.0.3u code. After a hesitant starting attempt, which just resulted in cranking until brake cleaner came to the rescue. It turned out my cranking rpms were set to low and the fuel value above this was half what it needed to be up to 800rpm, so the fuelling needed hiking up in the VE Tables.
I was aware the MSExtra semi sequential code needed a different required fuel constant (half of the normal untimed injection mode), but I also found the idle fuelling quite different too, as well WUE and ASE are more affected by the wax canister which acts as a fast idle on warm up, by opening the throttle butterflies slightly. I'll be tweaking this as I go forward to improve on the cold starts.
After a few minutes and after swapping the MAT and Coolant wires in the loom adaptor, I started to get sensible readings in TunerStudio. I never noticed this with the GTS1000 engines previously, but I'll have to double check the datalogs to see if MAT is double the Coolant temperatures. A few tweaks to the acceleration wizard, mods to injection timing, fixed and table etc, and I got a steady idle on an unknown engine. I am still not able to time the bike, without spraying oil over my glasses/timing light....grrrr.
It actually sounds very good off idle and you can rip the throttle and it takes off, no baulking. I am well impressed, and have ordered a lambda sensor sleeve of fleaBay to mod the exhaust further. My mate needs to get the rolling chassis up to spec now, and I will refine the rest of the fuel and ignition tables on the road, so it's up to him now to get on with it, as it'll take a week or so of constant refinement to get it to a touring/cruising standard.
PS The latest code is definitely cleaner running.
Short movie clips/links will be added later.
Re: Thunderace engine in GTS1000 using MicroSquirt running M
MobileMe is playing up and not uploading my Quicktime movie, they are sub 4 MB, but all was working a week or so ago24c wrote: Short movie clips/links will be added later.
Embedded them here, only short clips, but I know the tune is better with 3.0.3u.
http://www.mjscrane.com/EFI/Video/ThunderaceEFI.html
Thunderace engine, cased MicroSquirt, running MSExtra 3.0.3
I managed to get another Saturday off, and while the missus is way, Mickey Mouse will play. I have tweaked the Cranking pulses, ASE and WUE curves for the semi sequential set up, and after a few missed starts, almost catching I got it.
However the bike is idling way too fast, which is over fuelling, and too much advance, which can be caused by the vacuum or the MAP fluctuating and running higher in the tables than expected, or incorrectly set engine parameters (offset) re TDC not set right in the MicroSquirt.
So after more tweaking and equalising the values for the fuel & ignition bins at idling ranges, I started to dial in offset in the timing until the RPM dropped to nearer normal levels. Next I reduced/increased the fuel until I got the smallest MAP variation and least idle hunting.
Then I hooked up the timing light, and with the ignition at a default 10 degrees BTDC in the ignition tables, I altered the offset until it was bang in the middle of the "H" mark on the crank, bingo the MicroSquirt is now timed to the engine, so if I put 20 degrees in the ignition bin, I get 20 degrees BTDC advance levels. Thanks to my friend for dodging most of the oil drops coming out of the inspection hole and relaying the info back.
The bike starts easier and faster now, but I will have to tweak the the throttle roll from idle again now, as the advance tables are messed up. I will have to restore the fuel and ignition bins, outside the idle speed ranges, which I will leave for another day, and give my friends neighbours a rest. In the meantime, I am think of rescaling the kPA bins.
However the bike is idling way too fast, which is over fuelling, and too much advance, which can be caused by the vacuum or the MAP fluctuating and running higher in the tables than expected, or incorrectly set engine parameters (offset) re TDC not set right in the MicroSquirt.
So after more tweaking and equalising the values for the fuel & ignition bins at idling ranges, I started to dial in offset in the timing until the RPM dropped to nearer normal levels. Next I reduced/increased the fuel until I got the smallest MAP variation and least idle hunting.
Then I hooked up the timing light, and with the ignition at a default 10 degrees BTDC in the ignition tables, I altered the offset until it was bang in the middle of the "H" mark on the crank, bingo the MicroSquirt is now timed to the engine, so if I put 20 degrees in the ignition bin, I get 20 degrees BTDC advance levels. Thanks to my friend for dodging most of the oil drops coming out of the inspection hole and relaying the info back.
The bike starts easier and faster now, but I will have to tweak the the throttle roll from idle again now, as the advance tables are messed up. I will have to restore the fuel and ignition bins, outside the idle speed ranges, which I will leave for another day, and give my friends neighbours a rest. In the meantime, I am think of rescaling the kPA bins.
Last edited by 24c on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: GTS1000 on MicroSquirt running MSExtra
Sounds good on the video clips!
Your listing of tweaks and adjustments seems to be happening in my garage too.
What material have you used for your exhaust system? Is the polished appearance parent material, or coatings?
Lorne
Your listing of tweaks and adjustments seems to be happening in my garage too.
What material have you used for your exhaust system? Is the polished appearance parent material, or coatings?
Lorne
Thunderace engine, cased MicroSquirt, running MSExtra 3.0.3
Modded the kPa bins, so I have more bias towards the off idle MAP values. The GTS1000 throttle bodies have a "fast" idle wax solenoid that when cold holds the idle arm off the stop, so opening the butterflies/throttle slightly. This together with the increased fuel from cold start, always creates a fast idle around 2300 rpm, and a higher MAP value of around 70kPa, which as the engine warms drops to nearer 60kPa at an 1100 rpm idle. I noticed that the idle variation was causing the fuel & advance to drift into the higher value bins, and this was causing more variations still. By tweaking the Alpha N set up (SD secondary) & the temperature related adjustments for WUE, I should be able to compensate for the wax capsule behaviour.
I need to read the manual a little more and see if I can use another dialog box to eliminate this, but in the meantime this workaround seems OK, and increasing the number of bins above 70 kPa should eliminate this hunting, and give better off idle throttle control.
The one on the red and blue GTS1000, is a Renegade downpipe and 4-2-1 collector, with a DIY modded R1 link pipe, to a Blue Flame straight through can/silencer. The Renegade is 316 stainless apparently, the can is stainless with a Titanium skin, and the finish is stock polished.
I need to read the manual a little more and see if I can use another dialog box to eliminate this, but in the meantime this workaround seems OK, and increasing the number of bins above 70 kPa should eliminate this hunting, and give better off idle throttle control.
I thought so too, until I went to my local Yamaha dealer and did the same to a 2010 FZ1 (Fazer), but that is benefitting from a team of EFI experts, loads of dollars in R&D, and is 15 years newer throttle body technology. Never mind, when I can get it away from my friends neighbours, I can tweak it again higher up the rev band, and it'll come pretty close for a fraction of their costs.R100RT wrote:Sounds good on the video clips!
The one on the Thunderace engined GTS is just Chinese 304 stainless steel, which is sold under the Delkevic (UK) brand for the Thunderace. I cut it up, then it was welded, smoothed out with a flap wheel in a hand grinder, then polished on a wheel, and it's only temporary, as I intend to make my own replacement exhaust for the GTS1000 some day...when time allows.R100RT wrote:What material have you used for your exhaust system? Is the polished appearance parent material, or coatings?
The one on the red and blue GTS1000, is a Renegade downpipe and 4-2-1 collector, with a DIY modded R1 link pipe, to a Blue Flame straight through can/silencer. The Renegade is 316 stainless apparently, the can is stainless with a Titanium skin, and the finish is stock polished.
Re: GTS1000 on MicroSquirt running MSExtra
I appreciate the considerable work represented by the parts shown in your photos.
I'm interested in persuing SS for my final exhaust pipes, will do so this winter. I used mild steel, mandrel bent product to date, and added wraps to control temps in close quarters. My strategy was to prove the concept of turbo performance, and overal bike behaviour before moving past go, right up to "Park Avenue" so to speak.
Cheers, Lorne.
I'm interested in persuing SS for my final exhaust pipes, will do so this winter. I used mild steel, mandrel bent product to date, and added wraps to control temps in close quarters. My strategy was to prove the concept of turbo performance, and overal bike behaviour before moving past go, right up to "Park Avenue" so to speak.
Cheers, Lorne.
Re: GTS1000 on MicroSquirt running MSExtra
I would have done the same as you, except it was more cost effective to buy a cheap replacement system off eBay, and then tweak it...like you said learn what you want and then refine. I should add the exhaust on this bike is for a friend, and it is better than he wants, but mine will be betterR100RT wrote:My strategy was to prove the concept of turbo performance, and overal bike behaviour before moving past go, right up to "Park Avenue" so to speak.
I have to take the exhaust off again now, replace a broken exhaust stud, fit a O2 sensor bung and adjust the final exit....I need more upsweep.
Re: GTS1000 on MicroSquirt running MSExtra
Like I said before, I have to now work on the roll on for the throttle, rescale my MAP bins so that I have more sensitivity above idle, now that the engine is timed to the MicroSquirt. I was getting a problem on warm up, because the rpm is higher and the MAP too, 2200 & 70 kPa rather than 1100 and 60kPa, the advance was not stable, nor was the fuelling.
I adjusted the VE & ignition values in the idle speed range , so that the fluctuations were not due to jumping fuelling or ignition, but I must tweak the advance further, as it's bogging off the throttle slightly now, and stalling with snap openings.
Yesterday, I managed to get a few hours on the bike again yesterday, and it's definitely running a lot better, but you're going to have to take my word for it.
I had previously modded the Delkevic Chinese muck some more, by placing an O2/lambda sensor mid section care of fleaBay, plus a little more upsweep for the Blue Flame can, so the exhaust follows the original more closer, and clears the panniers too. I also lined up the centre stand stop position, so after I make the tab in stainless for the rubber stop to hit, I will be welding some more.
I still need to remove the broken stud in the cylinder head, and hold the exhaust downpipes down properly, so the newly acquired & refurbed oxy acetylene welding kit will come to the rescue. Next gotta tweak the centres on the silencer endplate to suit the can, because I think it's a Suzuki GSXR 750 replacement, but the best news, is I have tweaked the ignition tables, since I have retimed the ECU to the crankshaft sensor, and it positively barks. I have increased the advance in the mid section, and steepened the rate of advance.
Smells a little rich, but that can soon be tweaked....by reducing the fuelling in the Acceleration Wizard.
Overall, I have to say there is light at the end of the tunnel, and if my mate gets the rolling chassis prepped for the MOT, I will have finished the Innovate LC1 wideband stuff, and we can tune it down the road.
I'll edit the post later or update it with a newer one, with details of my VE Bins and advance skewing, when I drag the screenshots of the MacBook. Feedback would be welcome, but I need to do more work on the closed throttle cruising areas, but that'll come once I can get down the road.
I adjusted the VE & ignition values in the idle speed range , so that the fluctuations were not due to jumping fuelling or ignition, but I must tweak the advance further, as it's bogging off the throttle slightly now, and stalling with snap openings.
Yesterday, I managed to get a few hours on the bike again yesterday, and it's definitely running a lot better, but you're going to have to take my word for it.
I had previously modded the Delkevic Chinese muck some more, by placing an O2/lambda sensor mid section care of fleaBay, plus a little more upsweep for the Blue Flame can, so the exhaust follows the original more closer, and clears the panniers too. I also lined up the centre stand stop position, so after I make the tab in stainless for the rubber stop to hit, I will be welding some more.
I still need to remove the broken stud in the cylinder head, and hold the exhaust downpipes down properly, so the newly acquired & refurbed oxy acetylene welding kit will come to the rescue. Next gotta tweak the centres on the silencer endplate to suit the can, because I think it's a Suzuki GSXR 750 replacement, but the best news, is I have tweaked the ignition tables, since I have retimed the ECU to the crankshaft sensor, and it positively barks. I have increased the advance in the mid section, and steepened the rate of advance.
Smells a little rich, but that can soon be tweaked....by reducing the fuelling in the Acceleration Wizard.
Overall, I have to say there is light at the end of the tunnel, and if my mate gets the rolling chassis prepped for the MOT, I will have finished the Innovate LC1 wideband stuff, and we can tune it down the road.
I'll edit the post later or update it with a newer one, with details of my VE Bins and advance skewing, when I drag the screenshots of the MacBook. Feedback would be welcome, but I need to do more work on the closed throttle cruising areas, but that'll come once I can get down the road.